Hawkee   -  Oct 22, 2013

Just updated to OS X Mavericks. I'm quite pleased with the performance upgrade and very pleased with the price. Doesn't get better than free.

Sorasyn  -  Oct 22, 2013

Funny you mention that I was just reading an article about Apple's new releases today. Even funnier, it seems Tim Cook lashed Microsoft for it's merging of desktop and tablet markets with Windows 8 today as well.

Noutrious  -  Oct 23, 2013

Just updated too, actually — pleased aswell. Could see perfomance upgrade on the same open windows.

Noutrious  -  Oct 23, 2013

The funny thing is that I was thinking about buying Lion 2 months back. Saved myself 20+ euros.

Hawkee  -  Oct 23, 2013

@Sorasyn Yep, and Craig Federighi took a jab at Microsoft for their OS prices. It's hard to compare OS X updates to Windows updates, but you can upgrade a 6 year old Mac for free. You definitely can't say that regarding a Windows machine.

@Noutrious You mean Mountain Lion? Good thing you waited. Huge improvement in performance on the retina Macbook pros. Mountain Lion just wasn't optimized for those displays. Now its silky smooth switching between full screen apps.

Hawkee  -  Oct 23, 2013

The only thing that's troubling me right now is Safari. It's substantially faster than Chrome, but it lacks all my nifty widgets. I'm keeping both open for now. We'll see if the speed of Safari can sway me to give up Chrome.

Noutrious  -  Oct 23, 2013

@Hawkee it won't beat Chrome, but I can feel better performance in Chrome as well.

Hawkee  -  Oct 23, 2013

@Noutrious It's mainly a retina Macbook Pro issue. Chrome is very poorly optimized for the high pixel density display.

gooshie  -  Oct 23, 2013

Again!? A year and a half after the first time? Do you think Tim Cook envisioned where Microsoft is trying to go with their concept? Do you think he knew about the Surface Pro? Do you think only apple can innovate? Do you think apple never made mistakes? Mac sales are falling. iPad sales are also falling. Apple has to make Maverick upgrade free to increase sales. Tim Cook is bound to take it out on Microsoft.

To me Windows 8 is what I call a "radical departure" that makes me want to wait for the "7" version of it. Windows 8.1 seems like service pack one so still I wait. But, in a year or three Apple will merge the iPad and Air or get left behind telling jokes that won't move the market.

Hawkee  -  Oct 23, 2013

@gooshie I don't think Apple is concerned with merging OS X and iOS. They're two different operating systems for two different types of user. iOS is for casual users who don't need system level control. OS X is for developers, designers, and professionals. Microsoft is trying to transition professionals to tablets with the Surface Pro. It's a unique offering that Apple doesn't provide, but I don't think it's a threat. I get the sense that Microsoft is doing this to be different and possibly challenge Apple, but only time will tell if it succeeds. I don't have anything against Microsoft and I'm somewhat rooting for them. They need some serious infrastructural changes to get up to speed with the industry. They've just gotten too big and slow. Its time to cut the fat and streamline their development process.

Sorasyn  -  Oct 23, 2013

I'm just relaying what I read in an article. I can agree with Cook in that Windows 8 was a bad attempt at merging two markets when they are so very clearly two distinctly different markets. Even Windows 8.1 isn't quite what I expected. They'd be better off starting from scratch, and designing an OS which caters specifically to laptops and desktops. Half of Microsoft's problem is they're trying to turn their back on what made the company the software giant it is today, and chasing less lucrative markets and getting their ass handed to them. The phone and tablet markets are two excellent examples of this. Google runs the mobile market, and Apple predominately runs the tablet market.

If Apple's learned anything from Microsoft's blunders they won't even fathom trying to combine their mobile and desktop operating systems.

Noutrious  -  Oct 24, 2013

One good feature — cmd + ctrl + space = emojis 😃
Edit: Doesn't seem to work here, but does in Skype.

Hawkee  -  Oct 24, 2013

@Noutrious Neat, hadn't played with that yet. Not sure I'll be using it though.

Jonesy44  -  Oct 24, 2013

I'm really liking Mavericks so far - waited a few days behind until my new SSHD arrived. Went for a Seagate 1TB (8GB NAND Flash), put the old HDD into a £2.99 USB caddy from eBay, does the trick, cheap portable external! Happy to report a noticeable speed increase so far.

Hawkee  -  Oct 27, 2013

@Jonesy44 SSD's make a huge difference. They can breathe life into any old computer. You're probably seeing the speed increase more from the hard drive than Mavericks, but Mavericks makes a huge difference on the rMBP's. What machine are you running?

Jonesy44  -  Oct 28, 2013

It's highly likely to be the SSD component. It's a mid 2010 13-inch MBP. Can't afford a new one for a long while but I genuinely don't need one because this one still works so well! Although I wouldn't say no to a RAM upgrade soon :)

Hawkee  -  Oct 29, 2013

I'm sure its still a great machine. You might want to wait until they've got all the kinks out of the retina MBPs before upgrading anyway.

Sorasyn  -  Oct 29, 2013

SSD's speeds are incredible compared to a traditional HDD's. I popped out the 500GB that came in my Vaio and put in a 256GB Crucial M4. Did the same with another Crucial M4 when I got around to building another desktop computer over the summer.

Boots up in seconds flat. :)

Jonesy44  -  Oct 29, 2013

I'm not sure if I'd bother with a retina model unless there wasn't another option. I was considering going for an SSD in the HDD bay and an HDD in the Optical bay for extra storage.

Hawkee  -  Oct 29, 2013

@Jonesy44 I'd take a look at a retina. The difference is like night and day. It's definitely the most amazing change to happen to computers in the past several years.

Jonesy44  -  Oct 31, 2013

You can thank Apple's penchant for proprietary pentalobe screws, RAM that's soldered to the logic board, a proprietary solid-state drive (which, by the way, has changed to a PCIe format), and a booby-trapped battery. (Chances are high the user will "shear" the trackpad cable if battery removal is attempted, iFixit said.)

I'll pass - for now. I adore OS X so I'd sway very hard towards building my own hackintosh instead if I were to upgrade.

EDIT: Not that I dispute the incredible increase in technology mentioned above :)

Hawkee  -  Oct 31, 2013

The main thing that bothers me is the ram. The hard drive can be upgraded, but at a cost. Generally I'm happy using the same computer without upgrades for 4-5 years. I'm past my days of tinkering with computer internals. Right now it's just a tool.

If I do need to upgrade at some point I'll just sell it and buy another. If you buy and sell through Craigslist the upgrade can cost much less than the price of the hardware. For example a 512gb SSD goes for about $500 for the retina. I could sell my 256gb/8gb machine and buy a used model with the 512gb SSD and 16gb ram for a difference of maybe $200 to $300.

sean  -  Oct 31, 2013

Using a Mac Book Pro 15" Retina. One thing that bothers me, is the global CMD+F search. When I search in Sublime, it overrides my search in Chrome or other applications. Is there any way to disable this?

Hawkee  -  Nov 01, 2013

@sean I don't have a global CMD+F search, I use CMD+space for Spotlight. What generation is your rMBP? I've got 1st gen with the 2nd gen LG display. Have you had any ghosting issues? What display do you have? Run this in terminal:

ioreg -lw0 | grep "EDID" | sed "/[^<]*</s///" | xxd -p -r | strings -6

I've got the LG LP154WT1-SJA2

sean  -  Nov 01, 2013

No ghosting issues. Not sure which Gen.

Color LCD

Jonesy44  -  Nov 01, 2013

I see your point @Hawkee - I've had mine for 3 years before i started changing things. All the same, not a cool move whichever way you look at it. No positive, just negatives really. If it meant the RAM worked 10x better by soldering it on directly (ha) sign me up.

Hawkee  -  Nov 02, 2013

@sean Great, I have the SJA2 (2nd gen LG) as well. I started with the SJA1 (1st gen LG) and the ghosting was pretty bad. I had Apple replace it and they gave me another SJA1 with much worse ghosting. They replaced that with the Samsung which had a yellow splotch on the left side of the screen, so I'm on my 4th display now. No ghosting and great colors. I love it.

@Jonesy44 I think the positive is a thinner and lighter machine. It's also a bit more solid. My 2008 MBP was a little creaky in parts because the back plate didn't sit firm.

sean  -  Nov 02, 2013

@Hawkee Ah, I see. Does your Macbook get abnormally hot above the keyboard?

gooshie  -  Nov 03, 2013

Has Apple figured out yet how to have their $1500 laptops still function with the lid shut like my $400 Toshiba does right now hooked to my TV? It really should now that all the components are the same as in a windows laptop.

Hawkee  -  Nov 03, 2013

@sean Not unless I run some CPU intensive apps. Normally only games will do that.

@gooshie Yes, you can run it closed on an external display, but one of the main selling points are the retina displays, so unless you've got a reason to buy a Mac you're probably fine on your PC. I'd love to see what a rMBP looks like on a 4k display though.

Edit: I just checked and 4k is too high for the rMBP's, so it won't work. Best to just use the display that comes on the laptop.

gooshie  -  Nov 03, 2013

@Hawkee I want to get one of those 100 inch 4k TVs so when I watch porn I can stand in front of it naked and pretend like I am NEXT! Forget the affordable healthcare I need affordable porn; I need Obamaporn.

Really though, I'm as excited by 4k ultraHD as I am about 3D TV. To me it seems like the only reason they came up with 4k is because no one was buying 3D. TVs seem to want the same upgrade cycle and pricing as Apple computers. Maybe they need to create a one button remote control and get a smelly hippy to act as salesman.

Jonesy44  -  Nov 03, 2013

@gooshie The MBP's don't function with the lid closed because the exhaust for the fan is through the keyboard which would mean it would be intense heat on the screen. You shouldn't really run your laptop with the lid closed even if it can, to give it max cooling - if you want to prolong the lifetime of the parts :)
EDIT: You can run it with the lid closed if you actually wanted to, but it's a 'hack' rather than a feature.

@sean Mine gets hot on the top left section around the ESC-F4 keys but never that bad :) but it's not an rMBP if that's what you were asking about.

gooshie  -  Nov 03, 2013

@Jonesy44 are you saying that the $400 Toshiba I have been using daily for over four years may have a shorter life because I have been running it with the lid closed? EDIT: The MBP given to me is Tiger and none of the hacks work for clamshell mode.

Jonesy44  -  Nov 03, 2013

@gooshie Design lifetime of a CPU tends to be 20-30 years, the actual lifespan of silicone transistors. Chances of using a computer for that length, probably not that high. Generally no it won't cause an issue. Running in an increased temperature (that it is not designed to be running at, e.g. over-clocking without adequate cooling). I'm talking in purely theoretical terms, I've never killed a computer by heat personally but if I can reduce the risk of course I will. :)

If this [heat] range is exceeded while a computer is on, for example, there can be temporary or permanent effects to its performance.
An equation known as the Arrhenius equation states that each 18°F (about 10°C) rise in temperature will decrease the lifetime of computer components by 50 percent
You tend to get people complaining that after a few years their computers are slower than before, you can be fairly certain this is the reason!

I guess the point with an MBP though is heat directly onto the screen with no escape route will cause issues with overheating and damage to the screen because you're not into normal running temperatures.

Source: http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-operating-temperature.htm :)
Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrhenius_equation

gooshie  -  Nov 03, 2013

"You tend to get people complaining that after a few years their computers are slower than before, you can be fairly certain this is the reason!"
I do not believe this. Mostly on windows the system slows down because of adware/malware accumulated from getting some crappy free game, porn movie player or falling for the popups claiming to make your computer/internet faster. With XP I found early units that shipped with only 256MB of ram slowed because eventually updates raised the 'idle floor' to the point they began swapping as soon as you did anything. I put 1GB ram in and they ran fine then, maybe a tad slower only because the updates required more 'work'. I have NEVER seen ANY electronics 'damaged' by heat that ONLY ran somewhat slower after awhile. I troubleshot/repaired avionics to the component level on military aircraft before I worked in Industrial controls for many years and have worked on hardware most people do not even know exist.

Jonesy44  -  Nov 03, 2013

Granted - software causes issues, something has to use the power of your computer else it's fairly useless, an abundance of useless software will eat up all of that potential power quickly if you're not careful.

However, in my experience after fresh re-installs of OS's my old computers, there was an increase in speed but it would never reach the original speed which I had previous years. The trend is an overall decrease.

'ONLY ran somewhat slower after awhile' - the phenomenon you're describing is a performance decrease due to parts beginning to fail (heat). I think the point you're missing, despite it's fantastic that you've got your hands on some high-end hardware, that IEEE component bands exist. Military components are not on the same level as consumer parts. Solder joints alone have their own specification for military grade!

Please read up on some power dissipation in electronic components before claiming heat does not impede anything in this case. You just need to look at some basic component (resistors in this case) bands, you just can't compare military to consumer.
Commercial grade: 0 °C to 70 °C (sometimes −10 °C to 70 °C)
Industrial grade: −40 °C to 85 °C (sometimes −25 °C to 85 °C)
Military grade: −55 °C to 125 °C (sometimes -65 °C to 175 °C)
For an IC board

EDIT: Apologies gone horrifically off-topic on this thread.

gooshie  -  Nov 03, 2013

@Jonesy44 In my experience intricate sensitive components such as integrated circuits do not 'degrade' from heat; they simply fail and quickly much like an incandescent bulb. After a reinstall of your system and getting the years of updates it may well not run as fast as day one as I have explained about how XP did in my previous post. I have NEVER read nor heard anyone claim what you claim about heat causing some permanent slowing as a common thing. It simply does not make sense that ICs fail in this way on a regular basis. I have NEVER replaced an IC because it was 'wore out' and slow. ICs are not like mechanical components such as an internal combustion engine having valves and rings that wear out causing loss of power. ICs tend to fail totally or part of their circuit will. For instance, I have seen like one NAND gate on a quad NAND chip fail and the other three be fine. I know all about the different heat range of commercial, industrial, and military chips since I have worked in those areas for years.

Jonesy44  -  Nov 03, 2013

I don't have much time to respond unfortunately. All I'll say is - transistor switching speeds decrease over time with degradation. They won't 'break' as you have stated until they go bang, and I agree. But they will have lessened performance.

TL;DR Yes, heat damage exists. Electronics is a bitch that we love unconditionally anyway :p

Hawkee  -  Nov 03, 2013

@gooshie If you want to hook an Apple up to a display why not just use a Mac Mini? I don't think hooking a laptop up to a display is a major selling point for a laptop.

gooshie  -  Nov 03, 2013

@Jonesy44 Discrete transistors are not as tiny as the ones in ICs also consider that there is such a thing as CLOCK SPEED on a computer controlled by a crystal oscillator. Anyone who understands what I know will see that you are wrong and that the TL;DR is rude considering your rather lengthy useless post.

I want to hook my laptop up to a display because it has that capability and works perfectly. It is apple that has trouble with this simple task and is one of numerous reasons why I have NEVER bought an apple computer. The one Tiger MBP I have was given to me and gathers dust after I was unimpressed by its features.

gooshie  -  Nov 03, 2013

@Jonesy44 Also don't think I didn't notice you quote mine me out of context in your rather long post.
I said, "I have NEVER seen ANY electronics 'damaged' by heat that ONLY ran somewhat slower after awhile."
You took it out of context as "'ONLY ran somewhat slower after awhile' - the phenomenon you're describing is a performance decrease due to parts beginning to fail (heat). "
Also you obviously do not have any experience or you would know that a crystal controlled IC circuit to run slow because of 'heat wear' would be extremely rare. The crystal will age and temperature affect the clock in some minor ways but that is not the same thing.

gooshie  -  Nov 03, 2013

The fact that Apple users claimed the hardware was so superior for years before apple had to give up and use the same components that windows machines uses has something to say about users claims. So besides apple having to abandon creating their own OS from scratch when they went to OSX, they also had to give up on the old processors to compete. How could this have ever happened if apple was so superior when they made those nuclear fruit cocktail looking machines back during OS9? I had a girlfriend buy one of those so I got to thoroughly study it back then. Pissed me off how long it took me to find out that 'Sherlock' was the search feature. I felt like it was designed to appeal to ten year old Brits that would later learn they were a 'bottom' and probably explains why many apple users have that British snootiness that is oh so appealing.
A few years ago I was given a Tiger MBP and spent time learning it which was not too difficult as I play with Linux and FBSD regularly. I also go into my local BestBuy and keep up to some degree with Apple's new features. I notice that Lion improved the pointer so when you scale it up it does not pixelate like in Tiger. Of course on windows I created my own cursor set years ago that is bright green with a black outline for max contrast for easier visual tracking since I tend to mouse at max speed. No one can tell me how to do that on apple. I look at the retina display and not that it looks bad but it seems like its more about the numbers than some huge leap in performance. Those numbers come at a price, not just in dollars, that for me does not translate into 'better' for all uses.
The bottom line is that anyone who thinks buying an apple automatically endows them with all knowledge instantly is fooling themselves but not me.

gooshie  -  Nov 03, 2013

@Hawkee if I shouldn't hook my laptop to my TV I guess I also shouldn't have a $20 WiFi router running DD-WRT in client mode duct-taped to the side of my house so I can get free WiFi from the public school a quarter mile away. d:-/
You really do not want to see my HDTV antenna made from scrap 12 gauge solid copper wire from NM-B cable nailed to a 2"x4" used as the mast. I used basically a DB8 design but elements tuned to high end of the vhf spectrum and left off the screen reflector. For the phasing harness I used a piece of lamp cord and I made the ballast into the coax at the attachment point. This cost nothing because what I didn't have I 'found'.
I don't know whether I am one lab accident away from becoming a super villain or a fall off the toilet away from building a time travelling car.

Hawkee  -  Nov 03, 2013

@gooshie There's no single solution to anybody's needs. There's nothing wrong with buying computers to play around with their internals. If that's what you like to do, wonderful. Apple certainly isn't for everybody and usually I'll tell a friend to strongly consider why they want an Apple product before buying one. Personally, I like it for a well supported and robust Desktop GUI that runs Unix. You can't get that running Ubuntu, Debian, etc. I also find the retina display quite useful for web development and design. I'd rather not tinker with the machine itself and just use it to get work done.

gooshie  -  Nov 04, 2013

@Hawkee I cannot think of anything I would be able to do with apple that I cannot do as well or better with windows and *nix. Windows 7 is the best GUI I have ever used. The max/min/close buttons on windows just makes sense unlike apple. The whole idea of the taskbar at bottom and the windows controls at top make sense. I always felt insulted that Jobs thought people were too stupid to use a two button mouse. I wrote six or seven pages of things I disliked about OS9 back when my then girl friend bought one. Like I have said, I was given a Tiger MBP so I am well aware of how that works and there has been little change to the controls since then. That would be a plus if it worked like windows 7. I hate w8 but I was in BestBuy yesterday and saw some guy buy two $1000 surface pro 2s for him and his wife. In several years of going in BestBuy regularly I have never seen any MBP or iMac sold, though I know they do. They have a special apple rep but we don't have a 'genius bar' but that would seem redundant anyway when most apple users consider themselves a genius the day they buy an apple.
The most useful thing I found for web design was dual displays and not high pixel count. This allows full screen code on one display and the webpage on the other. Those 16:10 displays that can rotate into portrait mode are nice so you can see more lines of code without scrolling. If you use meta refresh at like six to ten seconds then you don't even have to hit the refresh button after saves. When are you updating this site to use semantic tags? I don't think I have seen one site yet using html5.
BTW can you PXE boot MBP from LTSP? For my next build I want to run LTSP on a Supermicro X9SBAA-F with IPMI and the 8.5w Atom that uses ECC ram.

Jonesy44  -  Nov 04, 2013

@gooshie You have a twisted, and very narrow minded view of Apple consumers and products. It's not for everybody, but that's ok.

RE: Quoting out of context. I assumed that it was one sentence since it was joined. Neither do I have any claim to expertees on this subject. I was trying to more openly discuss the topic than argue.

Hawkee  -  Nov 04, 2013

@gooshie There's not much more I can say. This computer works great for my purposes and your computer works great for yours. Everybody uses different tools and they all have their pros and cons.

Sorasyn  -  Nov 04, 2013

@gooshie : I see a lot of opinion sharing trying to be passed off as advantages of one over the other. Having the taskbar on the bottom doesn't "make more sense," it's simply the way you're used to it. As for never seeing a website using HTML 5, unless you haven't visited Youtube or very many other websites in the last several months, chances are you've been to at least one using HTML5.

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